Continuation of previous post
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Copy Clerk
Posts: 118
Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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I'm curious to know what you're after. Obviously the answer to this question but then you just went ahead and gave us the answers as seen below.
So you're looking for other peoples opinions? Mostly they seem to have a problem with the original premise and that your argument is based on, what you declared yourself to be, your own experience and a generalisation. This precludes other peoples experiences wavering you from your point as demonstrated:
And yet you even carry on when 31 posts into a 58 post thread you realise (perhaps sarcastically) that your experience isn't the standard for the entire country:
So what are you after? A high-minded discussion among forward-thinking lay people about the ideal aesthetics of the human form?
Ah. I assume you weren't really expecting academics, let alone physiotherapy/anatomy academics, on the off-topic forum of the escapist so any discussion of the literature is also out of the question, as is unqualified discussion of the points at hand. (As a side-note, you can understand a field of study and discuss it and have a worthy opinion about it without being published.)
Also I believe that second post acts against Rule 1:
As does your unfortunately revealing post about how you see the world
As do most of the rest of your posts. Your concept of constructive input and thought-provoking ideas, let alone threads, seems to be somewhat unusual.
In conclusion, I look forward to posting my ideas about the subject when I know what it is you want to me to say.
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Infamous Scribbler
Posts: 506
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
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Your numbers are bizarre then. Apparently you live...
**notes thread title**
Ah. UK.
I can only speak for Americans. Specifically New Yorkers. The women I know who go to the gym are trying to be Super Models - and the ones who work at it 3-5 hours a day come close.
They try hard NOT to build ANY muscle, but only burn fat, because they don't want muscle (apparently guys think muscle on girls is ugly? I've never thought so - think mildly toned women are very attractive). But they still work hard on burning calories and staying as thin as possible.
Perhaps it is different in the UK. I wouldn't know. Somehow I doubt all UK women are happy being fat.
I assume your sample size is the Gym you go to? Are you in a major city, or a smaller town? That can have a huge impact on how people treat body image.
Your generalizations that 95% of women do this is NOT AT ALL my experience. Hence why, even when I read you post, it made no sense because what you were saying sounded entirely unlike what I've experienced.
Perhaps this is an issue with your gym? No idea why it would happen like that... I'm just saying, I have not seen the data you speak of.
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Infamous Scribbler
Posts: 506
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
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Oh good, I'm glad I'm not the only one having a difficult conversation with the OP. This whole thread is starting to get a bit frustrating.
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Infamous Scribbler
Posts: 526
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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I'm simply curious if anyone else has seen the same, if anyone knows of people with that attitude or different, and any ideas about the topic. It is simply a hypothesis leading to a bigger picture about girls in the North of England.
Anyway, are you going to contribute anything to the thread?
Very interesting, thanks.
I do believe then that women in the UK (mainly the North) have a strange and abnormal attitude towards the gym which is a result of a broken and unhealthy idea about body image and fitness. Maybe many women in the UK just do not know what a healthy women looks like and what it takes to reach that aka it's a cultural problem rather than gender issue |
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Avatar Store Owner
Posts: 6747
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
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You can argue against people's interpretation of the evidence presented in the papers though. I'd actually like to see what papers you're on about (even a link showing the search terms you used would be useful), and what they study and conclude because I'm having a hard time trying to grasp what you're actually arguing.
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Gone Gonzo
Posts: 1093
Joined: 13 Aug 2010
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Obviously it's because women stop going once they're "fixed". Most of them don't want huge muscles like a lot of guys do.
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Wordsmith Extraordinaire
Posts: 14214
Joined: 9 Aug 2009
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There's a general attitude that's the same towards dieting too, I think (although its not comparable to guys, since I've never a guy my age say he's on a diet). I see a number of girls say "oh, I'm on a diet" for a few weeks, and as soon as they've convinced themselves that they've tipped just back into the widest range possible of being happy with their appearance, they stop.
Its general, but I would disagree with some of the others in that I do think its at least somewhat gender-related.
It could be said that skinny guys bulking up is just their idea of what "fixing" themselves is though.
Its got nothing to do with that; staying toned doesn't mean you've got hordes of muscle hanging off of you. You don't end up like Arnold Schwarznegger in the eighties if you run on a treadmill for X amount of time.
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Pulitzer Laureate
Posts: 756
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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Female - I used to go to the gym when I had the time (and money to do so) and I used to love it. The reason I had gone was because I was diagnosed with a heart condition and it was helping me to maintain a level of healthiness which I couldn't just rely on with my sit-at-a-desk job. It helped me to feel much better about myself.
I do see where the interpretation of 'fix' came from and I guess yeah, there are girls that will go to the gym to 'fix' themselves. But in my experience, I know of more guys who have told me the reason they go to the gym is because they are overweight and want to do something about it, and more girls have told me they go just to be healthy and because they enjoy it. And those are girls or all shapes and sizes, who genuinely are happy with themselves.
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Gone Gonzo
Posts: 1058
Joined: 9 Jul 2009
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Have you considered maybe they just don't care? I'm probably going to come across as a bad guy to the community when I say this, but from what I have seen women can get laid/get into a relationship regardless of how they look if they have the confidence or a more "easy" stance on sex and sexuality.
What I take from your posts OP is that you feel everyone shouls strive to be what the current social ideal of physical perfection is. Does that mean you strive for perfection in all areas of your life, or is how you look the most important thing on your agenda? A perfect person in todays multi-national climate should be able to speak multiple languages, a language can be learned with the same dedication it takes to work on the physical form, how many languages do you speak? Have you strived to reach intellectual or cultural perfection? Can you discuss classic works of literature or debate the nuances of fine art? I'd imagine not as to do those things requires an active interest in them and the time and dedication to persue that interest.
Regardless of what you feel to be "proven" as attractive, the vast majority of people will always be simply average in all aspects of their lives. You can bulk a guy up or tone a girl up untill their bodies are worthy of making golden casts of so that forever we may look apon the peak of human conditioning, but if they are ugly in their features they will always still be ugly. And as for personality, well shit is still shit regardless of how much sugar and perfume you put on it.
I think in reality the answer to your question is, everyone is looking to achieve their own view of happiness. Perhaps they slack off in attaining physical "perfection" because it would detract away from the areas of their lives which actually make them happy? As a random example, for a person who takes great joy in helping animals which would be better for them to do, spend 2 hours a day down the animal shelter helping out, or 2 hours a day in the gym?
Another thing I have just thought of regarding why men who regularly go the gym seem to want to "perfect" themselves. Competition, the need to feel they are better than the guy next to them. That guy just did 25 reps at x weight, so I'm gonna do 30. Even if no one else knows about his little victory than the guy himself, it will still make him happy, untill the next guy comes along and does 40 reps.
In that case I could sum it up like this. Women go to the gym to better themselves to the point where THEY are happy, Men go to the gym to be better than each other.
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Nerd Queen
Senior Editor
Posts: 5033
Joined: 9 Jan 2007
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People go to the gym for one of two reasons: to be healthy, or for vanity. That applies to both men and women, you know. It's not like the guys who are bulking up are doing it because they think they'll live longer. They're just as "desperate" as the women looking to be slimmer. They want to improve their appearance, it's just not about losing weight in their case, but rather gaining muscle.
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Infamous Scribbler
Posts: 528
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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I'm not talking about muscles, I'm talking about simply being toned/looking like a celebrity or model. They simply stop once they can not be called fat (but not called hot either). As Woodsey very well puts it : "..as soon as they've convinced themselves that they've tipped just back into the widest range possible of being happy with their appearance, they stop."
Wow, quite the opposite experience to myself. Are you in the UK and if so, North or South?
Really? Girls who just don't care about their appearance? ^^
That is very hard to accept knowing just how insecure girls are with their image - just call one fat and look what happens ! Although I do think you make a very good point about how women do control the strings when it comes to choosing a partner and maybe that is linked to all this and is a result of lack of ambition - not ambitious for a partner therefore not ambitious with their image.
As for my attitude towards life, I am merely not complacent and like to be productive. If I can look better, why not ? If I can do more and achieve greater things, why not try? If I succeed, great, and if I fail, I will still learn something.
I happily accept the idea that not everyone can be bothered or cares about being the best at everything, but to not even try and "happily" sit and average to poor at everything is just a bit confusing and feels like a wasted life. Also from experience, those who do this (not try) are not happy and tend to be on the verge of depression as deep down they know they are pissing their life away all because something within them is stopping them from achieving.
Your point about competition is a very good and I had not thought about it. It makes a lot of sense because I know many guys who are competitive yet few women who are.
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Pulitzer Laureate
Posts: 756
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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I'm from the UK - and my entire family are Northern, except me, who is Southern and we live in the South. The majority of my friends are Londoners or close to London
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Pulitzer Laureate
Posts: 717
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
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Back into this thread i go with another question to you OP.
Even if you had your constructive answer that you really seek what difference would gaining the answer do for you exactly?.
Also you can argue against someone with a PHD like others have stated and having a PHD does not always make you "right" as i stated before "not everyone is perfect" because humans always have their faults and you cannot deny that is also part of "human nature".
Oh and on a side note as much as i want You to answer my question i would like you to note around 20-30 more references if you would kindly as i was taught by my college professors that you need to cite more than just one area of information in order to make a claim to what you are trying to state and it also has to be physical means like books, notes, tests, and other forms of documented data rather than it just being off the internet, oh and also some interviews and documentaries would be nice too.
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Infamous Scribbler
Posts: 528
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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Ah, thank makes sense and reinforces my idea of the North as all the gyms I've been to are in the North and the only girls I knew who went to the gym (at uni) were either foreign or from the South. I wonder why that is ?
To argue against published papers when one is not as informed as those who wrote shows that the opinion has been formed around ignorance and/or arrogance but then heck, I was brought up to respect the opinion of those more informed than myself but I guess not everyone is. I will be able to get the link tomorrow as I can't access them right now for certain reasons but here is a great paper (which is free!) for you to read : http://www.jstor.org/pss/2744016
If you just google scholar something along the lines of : physical attraction in humans then you will get very good papers on this field.
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Pulitzer Laureate
Posts: 756
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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I have no idea what I've just reinforced!
I have no idea why you have met only girls from the South or from overseas who go to the gym but not the North, you may have to go on a visit to gyms around the North and do some sort of research if it bothers you, because alas, I do not have mind reading capabilities :)
Even though that would be awesome.
I will go back to the gym as soon as I have time and money to do so.
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Premium Member
Posts: 2107
Joined: 13 Dec 2008
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Well, it would be a lie to say my gym is completely free of overweight people - you tend to get a fairly extensive cross section in the place - but most of the girls/woman in [fairly] good shape are probably in the range from late teens to 30s/40s. As with everything of course, there are always exceptions. The same applies to us men too of course - just so you don't think I'm solely picking on the women here!
It'll be interesting to see what kind of people the usual January influx brings next year and how long they will stick it out for.... ;)
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Pulitzer Laureate
Posts: 717
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
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I was also taught to respect those around you as well as others "opinions" but i guess everyone is different.
Also yet again you like to claim those who argue against papers are "not informed" by claiming everyone who goes against a paper's idea as stupid which again is not true at all and hell i just asked around a few neighbors who have high end jobs and it is perfectly fine to argue against someone with a PHD let alone a paper so you can either pull back your "only the PHD's and papers are right" or claim everyone i just asked as stupid to which i could easily relay the message to.
And from tomorrow onwards i expect those 20-30 references to be posted and not just come from the internet as per my wishes.
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Copy Clerk
Posts: 66
Joined: 7 Aug 2011
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There is a difference between respecting professional opinion and blind loyalty to it. Though judging by a lot of your responsies to posters who have differing opinions than these PhD holders you seem so fond of, you seem quite ignorant and arrogant yourself.
If you are making this topic to discuss the ideas you present, YOU are the one who should be checking and linking sources, not us, as it not only seems dismissive, but lazy as well.
OT; That's not the case. I don't know what part of the UK you live in, but both men and women alike I know go to the gym for all sorts of reasons; to lose weight, maintain fitness levels, feel good about themselves, and more besides. It's not limited to gender. I know men who go because they think they are fat and ugly, and dropping a few pounds will heal that, and I know women who go because it is a fairly social way to keep themselves on top of things with each other.
Pretty big gender stereotype there, man.
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Muckraker
Posts: 324
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
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Knowing several people who go to the gym (men), this doesn't seem to be the case. The feeling that it's something that they need to do to be good enough is often not there, but sometimes you could reach out and touch it. Additionally, the group that go talk about it constantly. Not just in conversation but as in 'you going down the gym?' 'yeah you just been?' 'hey guys just got back from the gym' 'cya guys, going gym'. They don't just go, they want people to know they're going. They draw attention to it. To me, that looks like it's less a 'positive and ambitious' thing and more a desire to establish a manly identity because that's what a man should have. It's like how you'd see teenagers brag about drinking because that's what they're 'supposed' to do. They're fitting the identity the world has allocated them and taking pride in it, and want others to know it too.
Not that any of this is a bad thing. It's a strictly neutral thing, and if it makes you happy, do it. If it makes you unhappy and you want to do it anyway, that's fine too. I think we're a bit too quick to condemn people for caving to 'pressure' or not 'being themselves', as though we know who they really are and our ideas for how they should be (yes, our ideas, however much we call it 'being true to yourself') are superior. It's for people to choose what they want to do, and if they fall under 'pressure', well, the pressure is a part of them too, whether they decide they want to resist it or not.
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Muckraker
Posts: 324
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
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Gah, double post.
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Gone Gonzo
Posts: 3373
Joined: 14 Jan 2010
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Welcome to social constructions and body image. The genders are very different in what is expected of them, and what they are pressured to look like.
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Gone Gonzo
Posts: 1006
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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Damn, I've got some studies to bugger up with my, er, weird, preferences.
Yeah, there's a massive commonality to what people do/don't like, but there's a small percentage of oddities. I know there's certain traits that don't usually change - such as symmetry, but for things like body size... hasn't that changed over the years? Yer, there's "perfect" dimensions, but they can change.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was like 95% of people attracted to the perfect-dimensioned mate (of the "correct" race - my experience is that people generally have a preferred race), which would make the research accurate (there's a preferred mate) but there's always those damned exceptions ¬¬.
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Copy Clerk
Posts: 78
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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Eeeesh, OP.
This has been the most indulgent thread I have ever read on The Escapist. Why seek a retort to every comment received- especially when asking for other people's viewpoints!! Accept other people's opinions or dont ask for them.
I live in the UK, have gymed in Edinburgh, Cambridge, London and Belfast. Men take advantage of large weights at the gym as they are expensive and cannot fit them at home in the most part. I have seen plenty of men in gyms losing weight and going nowhere near weights. I wouldn't even aim to suggest what percentage of them are fixing or perfecting- both are subjective opinions YOU have bestowed on their gym attendance. I have got plenty of women in my gym who do weights and kettlebells, and equal numbers of runners, rowers and cross-trainer users.
The time you visit a gym, the catchment of the local population, i.e. student-area? will all play a part in who is there and for what purpose. You portray a really negative opinion of women in your comments, those who have no self-esteem and are looking to move from "bad" to "normal" - and dont get me started on that! I feel the OP likes his big muscles...
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Gone Gonzo
Posts: 2422
Joined: 28 Jun 2009
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Male. When I used to go to the gym, I used to;
"Fix" my arms. (They be weedy yo'.)
"Perfect" everything else. |
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Beat Writer
Posts: 157
Joined: 7 Jul 2011
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Very yummy
Agreed. Although to be fair, both male and female weightlifters go on a fat reduction diet just before and during competitive season. They are judged on how well those ugly little veins and tendons "pop" and how well defined each muscle is. Catch them off season and they look more normal (although if they have the "I'm so big I can't scratch my butt" arms/chest then they are ugly year round)
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Edit: Ok now I am officially pissed at this guy. I woke up to find this in my message box:
Seeing that you're off topic and clearly have no idea what a paper is, what is contained in one, and have never read one, you really should have not bothered posting and should not continue to.
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